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Podcast Episode 053: The Five Levels of Listening – Listening to Yourself (Part 1)

Oscar Trimboli:                                  

Deep Listening: Impact Beyond Words.

Hi, I’m Oscar Trimboli, and this is the Deep Listening podcast series, designed to move you from an unconscious listener to a deep and productive listener. Did you know you spend 55% of your day listening, yet only 2% of us have had any listening training whatsoever? Frustration, misunderstanding, wasted time and opportunity, along with creating poor relationships are just some of the cost of not listening. Each episode of this series is designed to provide you with practical, actionable, and impactful tips to move you through the five levels of listening. I invite you to visit oscartrimboli.com/facebook to learn about the five levels of listening and how others are making an impact beyond words.

In this episode, we step into the kitchen. We start to look at the recipe and some of the ingredients for level one listening. A big welcome to, Nell, co-host on the Apple award-winning Deep Listening podcast. Good day, Nell.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

Good day, Oscar. Thanks for welcoming. Just on my way here today, I was reflecting on that Chris Voss podcast, so the one with the hostage negotiator, fascinating, really good. I think the main thing I took away from that was the importance of the how and what questions, so valuable and something I know that I’m going to be using, so definitely check it out.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

Yeah, episode 48 is Chris. It took me a while to get him. He’s so in demand. He’s spoken at so many big locations, got a great TED Talk. He’s spoken at Google. He’s a New York Times bestselling author, and he does a great job of talking about high-impact listening, particularly when it comes to hostage negotiate.

Today, Nell, we’re going to spend some time with the Deep Listening menu. We’re going to look at all the five offerings that we have on the Deep Listening menu, so let’s quickly look at what the five menu offerings are for listening. Level one, listen to yourself. Level two, listen to the content. Level three, listen for the context. Level four, listen for the unsaid. Level five, listen for the meaning.

Like all great chefs and cooks like me, I think it’s the preparation that quite often makes a big difference. Not only how you prepare what you’re going to cook with, but making sure you got great, fresh ingredients because I think the ingredients and the technique will bring whatever you make to life. The same is true if you don’t have great technique and you have stale ingredients, so you have the wrong ingredients, the dish won’t work.

It’s all in the prep, as the French would say mise en place. A lot of the time, the prep isn’t even in the moment that you’re doing the prep. For a lot of great chefs, they’re preparing well in advance of the time they’re assembling the meal to together. The same is true, Nell, when it comes to listening, listening at level one, listening to yourself.

You see, level one is foundational. Level one means that if you don’t have a great foundation, listening feels heavy, laborious, exhausting. When we dive into the research, it pops up quite a bit. Nell, I know you spent some time with the research, what are people saying there about what they’re struggling with at level one?

Nell Norman-Nott:       

It screams out to us from the research that people get distracted. It’s just so many people seem to just find it a real challenge to be able to hear what the other person is saying. As you’ve been saying to me, Oscar, it’s not about hearing the other listener. It’s about, as you’re saying at level one, listening to yourself. It sounds like Barbara who says, “I struggle with the respect side of listening when, many times, I’m not paying 100% attention to what’s being said because, inside, I’m thinking of either what I want to say about it or just thinking of someone else altogether.”

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

Yeah, and also, it sounds like Kevin. He says, “My struggle is often my phone being nearby. It’s such a temptation.”

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

It sounds like Amelia as well, “I tend to start talking before they completely finish what they’re saying. They do the same in return. The conversation picks up speed. It’s kind of a thrill to talk fast and back and forth,” or Julie, “My mind tends to wonder when someone else is talking to me. My mind seems to go in so many directions. I’d like to quiet my mind and be more focused.” Wow. Kate says, “I struggle with not filling in the blanks the minute they pause.” Then finally, Nikki, “My all-time favourite kind of frustration, I struggle with being truly present in every conversation and cutting out the white noise.”

Oscar Trimboli:          

It sounds really hard, doesn’t it, and I think for a lot of us, it sounds hard because we just don’t know. 2% of people have ever received any listening training. It feels hard because there’s both internal distractions and external distractions as well. The internal distractions are the distractions in our mind. The external ones, like Kevin said, the mobile phone, or the laptop, or devices, or it could be external with the car going by if you’re in a coffee shop.

It feels hard because, quite often, we can get into this downward spiral, Nell, that we just race off in distraction. Our mind wanders, and it keeps wandering, and then we’ve completely forgotten we’ve got to come back into the conversation. For me, it only takes a little bit of work to get the right foundations, and this is the joy of working in training situations and speaking where you can show people, just with a little change, all of a sudden, everything opens up. Listening then becomes, rather than being laborious and heavy and difficult, it becomes light. It becomes effortless. It becomes easy.

What’s that noise?

Nell Norman-Nott:       

Coffee machine.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Is it the coffee machine, or something coming through the air conditioning?

Nell Norman-Nott:       

No, shuss …

Oscar Trimboli:          

Okay.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

The milk frother.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

All right, I’ll just wait, and you give me the signal for him.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

I think she stopped frothing.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Okay. Am I back in to it?

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

Yeah, she’s got her coffee.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

Nell, people always ask me for the one big tip. The one big tip is the deeper you breathe, the deeper you listen. It could sound as simple as what Christina, our Brazilian foreign language interpreter from episode seven, talks about how she prepares for high-dollar value mergers and acquisitions in the finance sector in Sao Paulo in Brazil. She’s amazing. She speaks Portuguese. She speaks Spanish.

She speaks Italian. She speaks French. She speaks Polish.

Interesting twist in her Polish story, her mom fled post-war Poland and was a spy for the Polish resistance. That’s how she learned Polish as her grandmother taught her Polish over the dinner table in Sao Paulo. Let’s hear from Christina about how she prepares for high-stakes interpretation, which is done simultaneously as parties are speaking.

Christina:                                          

Breathing is absolutely essential. Part of my meditation routine when I’m in the room, actually, when I’m about to start my interpreting is to take at least three or four very deep, deep breaths. I do sort of like the classic meditation routine where it’s like, you inhale for about eight seconds. You hold your breath for another eight, exhale for another eight, and then wait another eight seconds to breathe again. I do that at least three or four times because it’s just super quick, and it also helps relax my muscles, relax my body, especially because if your shoulders are tense or if your neck is tense, that also prevents you from allowing your voice to come out and to channel out more properly too. Definitely, breathing is key for me.

Oscar Trimboli:

Christina is pretty deliberate. She talks about almost getting into this meditative state. Equally, in episode 15 where we heard from Lisa Lockland-Bell, she’s integrated it into what she’s done. Listen out how she talks about it in moving to a meeting room.

Lisa Lockland-Bell:    

I think in that movement towards the meeting room, for me, it’s about bringing in the focus of the brain, making sure that I’m present, so I would be concentrating on my every step, feeling my foot land on the ground, feeling that movement. I’d also be breathing quite deeply so that I can actually feel that intake of breath and listening to my breath, so coming back in, almost like little, mini single-point meditation. As you walk down, you’re just bringing that brain right into focus, so that when you come into the room, you are present and open to whatever is about to be delivered and received without judgement.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Nell, a little bit of a trivia about Lisa, last year’s winner of The Voice in Australia was coached by Lisa.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

Oh, fantastic. I didn’t know that at all.

Oscar Trimboli:

Building on that, Nell, I was lucky enough to hear a beautiful quote the other day. The quote says, “Although it’s nice to be quiet, it’s more powerful to be still.” When I think about what everybody struggles with at level one, it’s not their ability to be silent during to a conversation, it’s their ability for their mind to be still.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

Oscar, this is something that we’ve heard in the research and it’s what people struggle with, really, at level one. I’ve read through the responses, and people say things like, “How to say focused when I’m bored and I’m not interested, caring about what other people say, staying present in the moment and engaged through. How do I ignore distractions? How do I keep my mind from wondering? How do I keep eye contact? How do I keep my personal bias from getting in the way? What happens when I judge the speaker rather than listen to them? What happens when I judge myself during the discussions? What’s the role of the surroundings, the environment, and what if it’s not the right time to discuss that topic?”

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

I wish everybody had as much time to go through the research as we have. There’s 1,410 rows in the spreadsheet with lots of rich and powerful data. It’s been great to listen to you, so thanks for helping us out with the research so that we can construct these episodes, specifically to deal with the issues that you struggle with the most.

As Heidi said, 86% of people are stuck at level one. What this podcast is designed to do is to help you get out of being stuck at level one, but to get out of level one, we need to build a strong foundation for you, so let’s think about four ingredients into the recipe that is level one. The four ingredients are who, where, how, and when.

Let’s start with who. The who is actually not the speaker. The who is about you. A lot of listening literature from the ’80s and the ’90s in the active listening movements talks about being focused and fixated on the speaker. This is helpful, but it’s not powerful and productive. You need to be available to the speaker. You need to clear a space in your own mind to make a space where the conversation can land. Now, imagine that you are in a kitchen and there are dirty pots and pans still in the sink, is that something you experienced?

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

That’s something I only experience when my husband cooks. I am incredibly neat and tidy in the kitchen.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

All right, so you’re a clean-ee and I’m a mess-ee. Visualise my bench top then. My bench top is full of knives. It’s got vegetables everywhere. It’s got bowls. It’s got flour. It’s got cooker. It’s all over the bench tops. It’s really difficult for me to prepare effectively for a meal. Rather than me just preparing the food and doing a great job, which would happen for you, a really clean and well-prepared kitchen, sounds great, but for me, I spend a lot of time and wasted effort moving around and trying to find space on the bench top.

We haven’t even got to the stove and the oven yet. For a lot of us, listening is like the way I cook. We have all this stuff sitting on top of our heads. It’s dirty. It’s cluttered, and just like the kitchen where we’ve got pots and pans and unclean knives and forks and mix masters, it’s lots of extra work if you don’t have a clean bench top to start off with. Our minds are much like a benchtop. If we’ve got room to prepare, everything becomes a lot easier.

When people say to me, Nell, listening is hard, I often visualise me cooking. I’m not great at it. I don’t do it often. When I do, oh, my goodness, what a labour it is, I spend so much time doubling up on effort. For me, I think about people who are trying to listen, and they’re spending so much time doubling up on effort because they’ve got dirty pots and pans already in their mind. It makes starting a conversation really difficult because your mind is cluttered and noisy, to begin with. When you start with you, you need to be in control. You need to prepare yourself as it relates to listening.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

It reminds me, Oscar, of … Yeah, you were talking to me about exactly this topic the other day. I was looking at my office window. I could see Andrew, who is our painter. Andrew is painting the outside of our 1930s California bungalow in Bondi. He’s awesome. I’ve used him a couple of times before, and the reason I keep going back and using Andrew is he prepares. We know we need to prepare when we’re doing any kind of DIY, right? Painting, you think, “Yup, we got to sand the walls. We got to settle this stuff out.”

The interesting thing I found about Andrew when I talked with him about painting was that he said, “In these old houses, they’ve had eight or 10 years of layers of paint.” Our house is 80s years old. Every 10 years or so, it’s had a layer of paint probably put on the outside. These types of paints have changed throughout the years, and so they’re going to have different compounds in them. When he slaps the new paint on top, so or whatever it is, what can happen is that new pain reacts with the older paint, and it bubbles, and it causes peeling, and the end result isn’t great, so he really needs to prepare the surface. I think there’s a lot of in common with how you prepare yourself for listening.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

A lot of conversations can kind of peel and blister, and you have to go back and do rework as well. I think it’s all about the prep. I think about a 90, 80-year-old house, in your case, yeah, how much rework would Andrew have to do if he didn’t get it right. For a lot of us, that’s the work in listening. We don’t do the prep right because we’re not ready to create the eh space in our own mind for listening to the take place.

Level one, listening, we start with who? We start with you. Make sure that you’ve got space in your mind to be available to listen to what the other person is saying. The simplest way to do that is just take a few deep breaths. The deeper you breathe, the deeper you listen. Equally, preparing for a great conversation is about the second ingredient. The first ingredient is who. The second ingredient is where. The third is how, and the fourth is when. Let’s spend a bit of time talking about what’s the right environment for a great listening conversation.

To increase the effectiveness of any conversation, what you want to do when you think about when you’re having this discussion is how do you reduce the distractions. We want to reduce the distractions that we can see, as well as the distractions we can hear. For some people, reducing the distractions might mean simply putting yourself in a quiet room, but Nell, there’s another way to think about that as well.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

I think a quiet room can be a fantastic setting for a meeting. I also noticed when I used to work at a large company, we were having back-to-back meetings every day, that you’re going from meeting room to meeting room. They can be very sterile, very same-y kind of environments, even though you’re changing a room. One thing that I started doing was having what we came to call walking meetings.

That started when I was meeting with one of my direct reports, Sarah. Sarah and I used to meet every week, and we would run through typical agenda of items, and then we’d come up with what needed to happen next. She’d go away, and the work would get done. She was great.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Did you feel like you’re going through the motions?

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

Yeah. We were going through the motions. We needed to change that. I knew we needed to change that. One day, I said, “Hey, let’s just get out the office. It’s a beautiful day outside.” You could see out the windows from our office on Pitt Street right down Martin Place. “Let’s just go for a walk.” That’s what we did. We left the office. We walked up Pitt Street. We went up into Hyde Park.

It changed the environment of the meeting, and it changed the feel of the meeting as well because we weren’t just talking about the rigid agenda items. What I noticed was that Sarah started to open up a little bit more about the business and about some of her opinions of things that were going on, which was really valuable information. She had a different perspective from my own, which was hugely helpful for what we’re going through at the time.

Whilst there were distractions and things going on because you could hear the birds in the trees, and you could hear the water in the fountain, it wasn’t the office distractions of the lift dinging, someone getting the coffee from the coffee machine, someone typing away someone on their phone. It changed the environment, and it was really positive for the things that we were able to share. Between the two of us, it became more of an intimate conversation.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

Do you think it kind of increased its effectiveness or its creativity? It sounded quite organic. Ironically, while you’re walking, you actually have to be more focused than if you’re at your desk because you’re literally focused on walking. While you’re walking and talking, it’s a pretty natural thing to do as a human. Coming up in an episode with Dr. Justin Coulson, he talks about if you want to engage teenage boys as opposed to teenage girls, you need to walk side by side with them rather than face to face.

If you want to have a great conversation with your teenage daughter, of which she’s got six, face to face is the way to go. If you want to talk to a teenage boy, distract them with walking, or give them a task to do like cutting up food, or they might be cutting up plants in the garden as well. Thinking about those walking meetings, was it just with Sarah, or do you do it with other people?

Nell Norman-Nott:       

I started doing that with other people, I think it’s not something that’s going to work with everybody. Some meetings, you do need to be in a room. You need your laptop, maybe, for collaborating on some things together. These were our regular one-on-ones. We knew each other well. I trusted her to do the work. Actually, what I wanted was her opinion on some things in the business, and it enabled us to have this kind of creative environment where we could talk very openly and with one another without the office distractions around us.

By the way, I’m going to really listen to that episode that coming with Justin Coulson because I have a seven-year-old son, and I think that I could use that with him, even though you said it’s the teenagers, just sometimes, having that challenge of trying to engage boys, that sounds like it’s going to be fantastic.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Yeah, I reckon if he was in the room right now, he’d talk to you about having a chat with him while he’s playing with Lego would probably be the way to go because I reckon he’s at that Lego age, right?

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

He’s at that Lego age. He’s also at that Beyblade age. Do you know what a Beyblade is, Oscar?

Oscar Trimboli:          

No idea.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

It’s a modern take on a spinning top, and he is obsessed, so are all the kids in his class. It’ like the latest thing that’s out there. I think that’s a really good point because I do notice that when he’s engaged in something that he’s focused on, I can maybe free him up to talk about things with me as well.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Great. Finally, coming back the walking meeting with Sarah, I’m curious what was different in your listening. You talked about hers, but what was different for you.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

It gave me time to reflect on what she was saying and made me think about what I really wanted to hear from her, which wasn’t just the things that were in our agenda, so following that formula, as you were saying, it’s quite mechanical, it opens up my mind to asking more creative questions because the environment was different. It changed the dynamic. It became more friendly, more conversational.

Oscar Trimboli:

What do you think it did with your relationship overall beyond the walking meeting with Sarah?

Nell Norman-Nott:       

Oh, absolutely changed the relationship and made it a lot more collaborative, kind of, rather than a boss direct report, it became much more of a collaborative relationship.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

Awesome. All right, so we’ve spoken about the first two ingredients. We’ve spoken about who, and we’ve spoken about where. Now, let’s spend a bit of time talking about how and when. Now, in front of you right now are the Deep Listening playing cards. If you haven’t seen the cards before, they’re organised into the five levels of listening. Think five suits. Five distinct areas where we talk about listening, so each of the suits are organised into, in this case, level one listening. There’s 10 cards that explain level one listening.

As you can see, Nell, they’ve got that beautiful artwork from that amazing artist who created this for us. It’s often commented on whether it’s in the book or in presentations or on websites, people just love the work that Baiyu did to create this amazing piece of art that helps people to listen to themselves.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

They are really beautiful cards. They just feel nice to hold in your hands as well.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Yeah, and lot of time went into thinking about not only the art but the feel of the card as well, as you can see, they’re oversized cards. They have a really unique feel to them. We have used a particular kind of glue and a particular kind of sheen cover there that a lot of people in workshops quite often comment as much on how the cards feel and how they look. Quite often, you’ll see them holding them to their chest, almost to bring them close to their heart. I think they really capture emotion really well.

You think about each card, Nell, you’ll notice it’s got four categories on each card. The categories are organised into the concept, the explanation, the tip, and then, finally, a question. The question might be a question you need to ask yourself, or it might be a question you need to ask the speaker. What I wanted to do was look at this particular card that we’ve got right now, which is called self-talk.

As you read out earlier on and listen to the research feedback, self-talk is a big distract. That’s a big derailer. It’s it really gets in the way of people listening. The concept of self-talk, the explanation is self-talk, the story in the listener’s mind when they’re waiting for the speaker to finish. Self-talk, the story in the listener’s mind when they’re waiting for the speaker to finish.

Then there’s a tip. It’s a highlight. It’s an awareness area. It says drifting into self-talk is completely normal, and what you need to do is just notice and resent and make sure you get focus back in the dialogue. I always say, Nell, the difference between a recreational listener and a deep listener isn’t that they get distracted. I get distracted all the time. The difference is I know I’ll be distracted, and I’ve got tips and techniques to get back into the conversation faster. I often visualise those rodeo kind of horse jockeys … No, that’s not the right word. I often visualise-

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

Cowboys?

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

I often visualise those rodeo cowboys that kind of get onto bucking horse. The good ones know they’re going to get knocked off. It’s how quickly they get back on again. For me, getting back into the conversation is not about pounding the sand when I’ve fallen on the ground, going on distracted. It’s like, “Okay, so we know we’re on the ground. Let’s get back up into the conversation.”

It’s the question, Nell, on this card, and it’s a question that talked about your conversation with Sarah. It’s the question about when and how around the conversation. The question posed is, is now the right time to have this discussion. Quite often, the right conversation at the wrong time is complete disaster. The right conversation at the right time is completely transformational. Nell, when you think about these cards, a lot of people interpret them one-on-one. Your self-talk means you’re drifting away by yourself, but you can often see that in group settings and meeting settings as well.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

Absolutely. I think you see it a lot in your average corporate meeting room where there’s maybe seven or eight people. I see that a lot, that people are all together, but they’re not really present. They’re distracted by their computers, distracted by their phones that are in front of them and next to them. They’re not focusing on what the other person is saying.

Oscar Trimboli:          

Yeah. It’s interesting because a lot of the training scenarios that I brought into around listening. I’m being asked to train salespeople because they feel or their managers feel or their customers feel that they could improve their listening. A lot of them have training on how to figure out the budget. A lot of them have training on figure out who to talk to, but very few of them pay attention when they’re in those conversations.

We used these Deep Listening cards in a training programme we ran … It was a beautiful location on the Harbour International Park in Sydney. The leader talked about the fact that they took out one of the Deep Listening cards and said, “I’m going to use this card for the next week. I’m going to look at it every day because this card, particularly this one on self-talk, was something that Steven particularly struggled with.”

What he did as a result by role modelling that, the team started bringing cards into the team meetings once a month. They almost played listening bingo where they’d call people up when they’d interrupt or when people were getting distracted or when their mind was drifting away. Sometimes, I’m amazed where these cards get used. Equally, I’m amazed by the imagination of people to use them by themselves in a situation with somebody else, in regular team meetings, in training.

I’ve heard of these cards being used in prisons as well as with principals in teaching environment. The cards have all come about because of listening on a group of training that I ran where people kept saying to me, “But you should make that into a card, Oscar.” Again, another example where just listening to what people are saying would be interesting but acting on it and turning them into cards has made it quite fun.

Nell Norman-Nott:                              

It sounds like they’re really simple to use as well. I mean, the information is all there on the card.

Oscar Trimboli:                                 

I’ve seen people in offices where the card is up next to their computer, or people bring it into performance review discussions. I’ve heard a situation with Kevin about two years ago now where he went into the performance review with his manager. They were asked to do some self-reflection on how they performed throughout the year. He showed the card to the manager, and he said to her, her name was Alice, “How do you think I’ve gone with this, this year?”

She turned to the card, and she read through it, and she went, “Wow, is this why your listening has changed so much over 12 months?” In that moment, Alice kind of went, “How’s my listening gone in the last 12 months? It opens up interesting conversations by having the card there. Deep Listening, the card series, also, we’ve got the Deep Listening jigsaw puzzle, but we’ll talk about that in another time.

Let’s come back to the foundations of level one. Let’s talk about the four ingredients that make up what grade level one sounds like, looks like, and feels like. Let’s recap. Let’s talk about the who, the where, the how, and the when. Let’s remember, the who is you. The who is not the speaker. If you’re not ready to listen to somebody else, it’s going to be impossible, no matter what techniques you use in terms of note-taking or focus or fixation, if you’ve got a whole bunch of self-talk going on in your head, the likelihood that you’re going to be an effective listener through the whole conversation is low. If you do it, congratulations, but you’re not going to be able to sustain it because it’s going to feel heavy. It’s going to feel laborious. What we want you to do is make listening light and energetic, engaging and fun.

Point number two, where is the right place for the discussions? Whether it’s in a quiet location, whether it’s a walking meeting as Nell talked about earlier on where you jump out of the office and go to a local park or just the act of walking for some people through a street is more than enough to change the environment and keep the distraction away. The next one is how. How will you recover when you’re distracted? Nell, we’ve heard over and over again from the research we’ve done with Heidi from the Facebook group, from the training courses we’ve done, all the various environments we can listen to everybody from, distraction is our challenge.

In our next episode, we’re going to stay focused on understanding what’s getting in the way. What to do when you’re distracted, and how to do avoid the derailers as well as how to engage with the derailers as well. We’re going to learn how to dance with distraction. We’re going to listen to Christina, a world-champion military sniper from Sweden who’s going to talk about the power of focus and how you can stay in a conversation once you’ve noticed distraction.

Then, finally, as we talked about earlier on, ingredient number four, when is the right time to have the conversation. Sometimes, the most powerful thing you can do when it comes to listening is pick a time to have the conversation that’s effective rather than when emotions might be high or people’s distractions are particularly evident. Those four things, again, are who, meaning you, where to have the conversation, how to have the conversation, and more importantly, how to recover from distraction, and then, finally, when is the right time to do it.

Nell Norman-Nott:       

A shout out and welcome to the new people that have just joined the Deep Listening Facebook group, to Stephen, and Mirek, Bec, Abe, Stacey, and Ashleigh. I can already see you’re starting to get some great conversations going with everyone else who’s in the group there.

Oscar Trimboli:                                                                                                    

Yeah, it was a great conversation between Steve and Abe. If you’re in the group, you can see it, but it talks to the impact of what happens when you’re ignored and people don’t listen to you, particularly as it relates to safety and what the consequences and cost of that could be.

A huge thank you to you. Thanks for listening to the Apple award-winning podcast. As a gift from me and Nell and from Johnny, our amazing sound engineer, we’ve created a simple practical and useful downloadable called the Five Myths Listening. Visit oscartrimboli.com/listeningmyths, where you can download it. Not only have we got the five myths, but equally, we’ve got the five tips to get around those big derailers when it comes to listening.

Thanks to you for creating the Apple award-winning podcast, Deep Listening: Impact Beyond Words. We couldn’t exist without you. It takes a village to nurture a child into a healthy adult, and it takes a tribe to create a movement towards 100 million deep listeners in the world. Thanks for listening.