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Deep Listening with Bronwyn King

Bronwyn King:                

And so there I was, fully aware of the true impact of tobacco, and seeing it in front of my eyes all the time. And then this man had just told me I own shares and the companies that make the products that were killing my own patients.

 

Oscar Trimboli:            

Hi, I’m Oscar Trimboli, and this is the Deep Listening Podcast Series, designed to move you from an unconscious listener into a deep and productive listener. Did you know you spend 55 percent of your day listening, yet only two percent of us have had any listening training whatsoever. Frustration, misunderstanding, wasted time and opportunity, along with creating poor relationships are just some of the costs of not listening. Each episode of the series is designed to provide you with practical, actionable, and impactful tips to move you through the five levels of listening. So I invite you to visit OscarTrimboli.com/facebook /I spoke to look to learn about the five levels of listening, and how others are making an impact beyond words.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Here’s a shocking statistic. In the 21st-century, 1 billion people will die from tobacco related illnesses. Today, that’s 19,000 people every single day die from tobacco related illnesses. On this episode of Deep Listening, Impact Beyond Words, a lung cancer oncologist will explain how listening to the finance sector will save more lives from tobacco-related illnesses than any drugs or chemotherapy.

Oscar Trimboli:            

You see, in June 2016, I sent an email to Doctor Bronwyn King, a lung cancer oncologist, at the world-famous Peter MacCallum Institute. I got a reply, and Bronwyn said she’s travelling a lot internationally. She isn’t available for an interview right now, but stay in touch. That was about 900 days ago. Then, in December 2017, I thought I’d try my luck again, and between Bronwyn’s travel schedule and me wanting to do face to face interviews, I knew that Bronwyn’s quest was worth the interview.

 

Oscar Trimboli:                            

So I persisted, and I was so delighted I persisted with getting Bronwyn for this interview. If you’ve ever heard me speak on stage, or interviewed about the cost of not listening, it’s Doctor Bronwyn King’s story that I’ll tell you first. Doctor Bronwyn King has cured more lung cancer by listening than she has by chemotherapy. Bronwyn listened beyond the finance sector jargon to solve one of the biggest health issues of the 21st century, 1 billion tobacco related deaths, 19,000 people per day.

Not only does Bronwyn listen to the content, but she explains the importance of listening to what’s unsaid, listening to what people mean, rather than what they just said. So it was a privilege to listen to Bronwyn, and I know it’ll be a life-changing interview for many of you. So, let’s listen to Doctor Bronwyn King. What frustrates you when people don’t listen to you?

Bronwyn King:             

Well, I had a recent example where someone wouldn’t listen to me. They just wanted to tell me what their view was of the issue that I was trying to engage on. When I knew they didn’t know anything about it, and they weren’t even willing to spend two minutes listening. What frustrates me about that is that even some of the world’s gracious leaders, no matter how smart, or charismatic, or how accomplished they are, know everything. No one knows everything.

And so this journey has really taught me to believe in that saying, “Never overestimate people’s knowledge, but never underestimate their intelligence.” I love that saying. Because the people I meet are super, super, super smart, but they’re perhaps not particularly knowledgeable in the area of tobacco, which is what I want to talk with them about. It just frustrated me so much that this very senior person who I met, very senior executive didn’t want to learn, at all. He just wanted to tell me what he thought.

And that was disappointing, because now I’ve seen so many great examples of people in similar positions who are willing to learn. So I know what it takes to be what I think is a great leader, and that is open to new learnings.

Oscar Trimboli:            

What do you struggle with when it comes to listening?

Bronwyn King:             

Now, I’m always on tour, so I am often found on a plane or overseas. Time is a very precious thing to me. So often when I’m meeting with some of the most influential people in the finance sector globally, I’ve only got a tiny amount of time. And they might only book me in for 20 minutes in their diary, which is not nearly enough time to really engage on the issues that I need to engage.

So I feel pressure to speak, because I need to deliver a certain amount of information in a very limited time, with people who are super busy, and people who could just walk out of the room at the 10 minute mark, or the 12 minute mark. I always try to lead with the most important things. But it’s a game. You can’t just walk in and start with the really heavy aspects of the conversation. You have two, I guess, be mindful that we’re all humans, and you have to let people warm up and so forth.

And so I think that’s where I would struggle, in that I feel all the time pressure. And while I want to listen, I want to listen, I want to get to know people and understand where they’re from, reality can sometimes make that really challenging.

Oscar Trimboli:            

What’s the cost of not listening for us, as humanity at the moment?

Bronwyn King:             

Well I think the cost of not listening is missing out on connections that can change the world. Massive, the costs are massive. I think the world is in need of really genuine connections, and genuine leaders. And everyone talks about how we’re all living in silos, and we absolutely are. If you don’t really listen, you don’t really connect, and you don’t really understand that in fact there are really no silos.

We’re all kind of the same, and we’re all living in the same world, and we’re all part of the same saying. There are far more things that connect us and make us a line then we perhaps realise. Once we are aware of that, then we can start from a good place, and start to address these global challenges that we have. But if you don’t listen, you don’t connect, if you don’t connect, you don’t really care about other people, perhaps, who are in different worlds to you, and the whole system can fall apart.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Let’s go back to a really practical thing you did when we walked into this recording studio. Let’s let the audience know what you did with the mic and where it was at.

Bronwyn King:             

Yeah, well the first thing that I did was I moved it down so that I could look Oscar right in the eyes, because I’m a big one for personal contact and eye contact. And in fact, the reason why I spend so long on planes is because despite advancing technologies that we have, I don’t think anything will replace spending time with people in person, and sitting down and have varying genuine conversations with people, and shaking their hands, and looking in their eyes, and sharing a cup of coffee, and sharing a moment with people.

Bronwyn King:             

I just don’t think that that can be replaced. And maybe I’ll be proven wrong in years to come, but there’s something magic about human beings. In the end, there’s a lot to be said about genuine human contact. And certainly the work that I do simply would not have been possible without genuine, good human relationships, that have backspace work right from the start and continue on to today.

So I keep getting on the plane, and obviously there is a cost of that. You know, I have to spend a lot of time away from home. But, the benefits of that are that I have people who I consider my friends now, in cities all around the world, who want to help. And they include the CEOs and chairman of some of the biggest financial organisations in the world.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Take us to that moment where you were talking to the representative from Health, and what happened?

Bronwyn King:             

We had organised to meet to discuss, pretty much I just needed to know how much money I had in superannuation, that’s all that was happening. It was 2010. I don’t think things were online then, so I think I had to just sit down and have a meeting with him to find out how much money I had in my superannuation account, and that was going to impact the amount of money that we could borrow from the bank, and then which houses we could look at and so forth. We were planning to buy this house.

And so I just met with him, and he brought along some paperwork, and showed me how much money I had, which wasn’t very much. We had a little chat, and I remember I had a latte. I can remember the table that we were sitting at, I can remember it quite well. And then the meeting finished, and I stood up and I shook his hand, and I walked away.

Completely as an afterthought I sort of rushed back to the table and I just said, “Oh by the way, I meant to tell you what to do with that money.” He said, “No, no, no, it’s all taken care of. You’re in the default option.” I just thought, “Hang on, option. Does that mean there are other options?” He looked at me and he rolled his eyes, and he said, “Look, there is this one grainy option, for people who have a problem with investing and mining alcohol or tobacco.”

I said, “Did you just say tobacco?” He said, “Yes.” My mind was sort of racing. I said, “Does that mean I’m currently investing in tobacco?” He said, “Yes.” I just thought, “That doesn’t make any sense.” He said, “Will look, everyone is.” I can’t remember exactly what happened there, except I had this little moment right there at the cafeteria where I thought, you know, I’ve been coming to work every day for about 10 years trying to treat people suffering directly as a result of that product. And whilst the community is very complementary and kind towards doctors in the medical system, the truth is we don’t have good treatments for the vast majority of people who suffer from tobacco related diseases. Most of them died because of that tobacco-related disease.

Bronwyn King:             

And so there I was, fully aware of the true impact of tobacco, and seeing it in front of my eyes all the time, and then this man had just told me I own shares in the companies that make the products that were killing my own patients. It was just this incredible moment. Right then and there I just thought, “I cannot let that continue unchallenged.” And I guess the way that he said it also made me realise that he wasn’t particularly fussed by it, that’s just what it was. Whereas for me, I was very fussed by it, I was very concerned about that. I thought that was a glaring problem that needed to be addressed. And right then and there I thought, “I think I need to have a crack at fixing that.”

Oscar Trimboli:            

Most people don’t know how many people die each week from tobacco related illness.

Bronwyn King:             

That’s it. And I think, well even then I don’t think I did. I was a clinician. I wasn’t a researcher, I wasn’t an expert in public health, and I certainly knew nothing at all about finance. Nothing. I had no idea about the pension system, or the regulatory environment, or how banks or insurance companies work, or fund managers. Or anything in Australia, let alone globally. I had no background in that at all.

But I did know that tobacco very brutally killed people. I did know that. And I didn’t know what it was like to sit there and watch people in their 40s and 50s have to have their last ever conversations with their own children, because they were about to die because of tobacco. I knew what it was like to find someone in the middle of the night saying, “Look, I think you should come in, because I don’t think dad’s going to make it. I think you should come in to have your last conversation.”

Bronwyn King:             

And so if you know what that’s like … I think that was really the driver behind me one thing to make sure that another part of the world, the finance sector, knew what that was like. Because I thought if they didn’t know what that was like, that perhaps it would give them just a moment to reconsider, and just to think more clearly about whether they wanted to continue with the status quo, which was just continue investing in those companies, continue lending them money, continue insuring them.

Bronwyn King:             

So I just felt that there was a bridge that needed to be built between these two communities, the world of health, that knew all about tobacco, and the world of finance, that from my point of view really knew nothing about the front face of what tobacco really was like. And so, that’s where it all began.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Now if we put on the front page of a newspaper every week how many people died from tobacco related illness, how big is that number?

Bronwyn King:             

So the big, big number is that every year 7 million people die because of tobacco. I mean, every year. It’s a crazy number. Every day, that’s 19,000 people, every single day. And I always say to people I don’t know why that doesn’t make the front page of the paper every day. Can you imagine any other single cause causing 19,000 deaths in one day, and not being on the front page of all the papers tomorrow?   

But that is going to happen. So 19,000 people will die today, and this is globally, and no one’s going to cover that as a story tomorrow. So we’ve sort of become numb to that number. We just accept it. I don’t understand why we accept it, but I think it’s up to the public health community to talk about that consistently, and make sure that people realise really what’s going on.

Bronwyn King:             

But no, I don’t think people have any idea of the scale. I really don’t. When we look at all of the deaths every year in the world, 12 percent of all deaths are caused by tobacco. Just one single product. And it’s not like it’s a bug, or and infectious diseases or something we’re up against. These are companies run by human beings. This is a human caused problem, and so it can be a human fixed problem too.

But we certainly need to talk about it more. And I think the public health community has been so, I think, exhausted with this problem. I have met public health leaders from all across the world who have devoted their whole lives to this problem. It’s quite something to go up against a challenge like this, because when you start the challenge, you have to admit that the problem can’t be fixed in your own lifetime.

And it’s crazy. Who takes on a challenge you can’t fix in your life? But the truth is, if we don’t take it on, we’re not going to fix it for our children, or our grandchildren, so someone has to do it. And so, we certainly need more ideas, and we need new strategies. From my point of view, it’s certainly very nice to now have some of the world’s most influential CEOs as chairmen on our team, and that’s never happened before.

Bronwyn King:             

We’ve never had the finance sector standing side-by-side with us, so we’re in a new place, and I guess very excited about where that might take us, and what potential we might have. And it all comes back to great human conversations, with people who we end up developing very good relationships, who want to help us.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Imagine you didn’t do anything with the words default option. What would you be doing right now?

Bronwyn King:             

Such a good question. I don’t know. Look, I’ve always been a very busy person, full of ideas, and wanting to lots of other things. In my earlier life I was a competitive swimmer, then I was a team Doctor for the Australian swimming team for about eight years. So I’ve always had all sorts of different projects, and I very much wanted to do good things, and to contribute to the world.

I think when this project came along it was a sweet spot for me, because I was in a very unique place to be able to have these conversations, having a background in medicine and being able to tell the story of tobacco, but at the same time gathering respect from the finance sector one by one, and then that network opened up to me just organically. One CEO would introduce me to the next one, introduced me to the next one.

So, I guess I was just in the right place at the right time for that conversation. But look, I guess if I had didn’t listens to that, what would’ve happened? All this work wouldn’t be happening. This work just wouldn’t be happening. I think the other thing is, you know, a lot of people have said to me over the years, “Why didn’t you just change fund?” Why didn’t I just change fund? I guess I could’ve. But to me, it just suggested that … I didn’t know it at that exact time, but it did suggest that the problem was a lot bigger than me. Default option, everyone’s in the default option. Everyone.

Oscar Trimboli:            

And its jargon. Every industry has this jargon, and they don’t pay attention to it, and they use it very much throwing it away. This health industry representative would’ve been surprised that you asked the question.

Bronwyn King:             

Oh, he was. He was surprised. He was. And when he just said, “Well everyone does, everyone invests in tobacco,” it was just, “That’s how we roll.” For him it was just normal. But for me, it shouldn’t be normal. And so for me it was a really, yeah, it was a really big moment. It showed me how disconnected we were. And I think it probably also, part of it was that I’d already been a doctor than for 10 years.

Which meant that my money had been invested in tobacco companies for 10 years, at exactly the same time that I was going to work every day at Hospital. I thought it kind of, it just undermined everything I stood for. And it was happening with my money on my watch, and I just couldn’t let that go.

Oscar Trimboli:            

You had to go and listen to people in industry that you had no background in. Finance, governance funds management. The layers that exist within the finance industry, I don’t think most people appreciate. There’s trustees, there’s fund managers, there’s asset allocators. And then you have public sector versions of that through sovereign wealth funds. Whether that’s the work you’ve done in the Middle East, or the work you’ve done in Europe and beyond. There’s probably lots of things you had to listen to, so how’d you train yourself to just offer yourself? Because finance probably isn’t a natural place for you, unless you’ve got something hidden in that MBA, or anything else like that.

Bronwyn King:             

No, no, no, no, no. But I want an honoree to gain finance at some point from someone.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Yeah.

Bronwyn King:             

But no, I can still remember the first finance conference I went to. It was in Darwin, it was a public sector conference. The CEO of First State Super had become a champion of this issue at this time. They’d gone tobacco free, but really they were out there on their own. But the CEO and I met and had this great conversation. He said, “How about you come to this conference?” He put me on stage with him, stood beside him.     

  

But in the lead up that morning, I spent two hours in the room, and then before I was on stage spent a few hours in the room. I remember remarking to him that I had no idea what anyone was talking about. I just didn’t understand. It was a completely different language. I knew I had an awful lot to learn. So I went about spending time with finance leaders, and I was very, very lucky to be introduced to really some of the industries most decorated leaders. So I met a lot of CEOs, and a lot of trustees, and a lot of Chief Investment Officers, and a lot of people who head up departments of sustainability or responsibility.     

I have an awful lot of coffee with them. So, I met people for coffee, or breakfast, or lunch, or whatever it was, and they talked me through how things worked. Over the years people have said, “How do you know all about this world of finance?” And even just recently I thought, “Well I’ve had private tutorials with the cream of the crops from the industry, not just in Australia, but now around the world.” But it did All-Star just simply with conversations, and by going to conferences.

Bronwyn King:             

It was funny, because I went back to a … I was giving a presentation, actually at the First State Super offices, with that CEO that was there at my very first finance conference. I delivered this presentation and he came up to me afterwards with this great big smile on his face. He said, “Having you come along way?” He said, “Here you are, talking about asset classes, and fixed interest.” The reality is, if you want to be taken seriously in an industry, you need to speak the language of that industry.

Oscar Trimboli:            

So a lot of that’s listening to the content. When we talk about the five levels of listening, we also talk about listening in the context, but also listening for what’s unsaid.

Bronwyn King:             

On a similar note, when you say I’m listening to things that are not being said, what has been very interesting with many of the leaders I manage, is that I sense that many of them want to tell me a story. They want to tell me about their family or friends who’ve suffered from tobacco. And they’re certainly not going to lead with that, but I can often feel that they want to mention that.

And it’s funny, because usually they don’t say that during the meeting. They’ll tell me in the hallway, or outside the lift as they walked me out. That’s one of the reasons why I often say, you know, you really do need to go and see people. Because even though you could have a virtual meeting, and they could pop up on a screen, they just pop up and then they go away. The real magic happens just before or just after the meeting, not during the meeting itself.

Bronwyn King:             

So I do try to, I guess, make space for those conversations to come out at the right time. Because when people do tell me those stories, is nearly always followed with a, “And I’ll do whatever I can to help.” And obviously, those offers of assistance are crucial. But also I really know that they have more than a passing interest in this conversation. So yeah, reading between the lines, and leaving room, and really making a space for people to tell me those extra things has been a crucial part of it.

Oscar Trimboli:            

So a lot of listening ninjas talk about the use of silence. How conscious are you of using silence?

Bronwyn King:             

It’s tricky. It’s tricky. As I said before … Well certainly in the first meeting with someone there’s often not too much silence, because it’s often a very short meeting. But later on, later on if you leave spaces for silence, that’s when the real stories come out. So if you can, if you’re comfortable with that, I think that’s a good thing. And to be honest, in medicine, doctors have to do that anyway, because patients often want to tell you something. And if you just keep talking, they can’t get it in.    

   

And it might be a difficult thing they want to talk about, so it’s not something they just jump in with. They need a bit of room, and often they start, and then stop and start, and stop again, so you have to give them a chance to get it out.

Oscar Trimboli:            

And then finally, a lot of the things you’re doing is listening for future and listening for legacy.

Bronwyn King:             

I don’t think it’s an accident that the finance leaders have wanted to make this decision towards the end of their careers. I think it definitely plays into legacy. Nearly all the people I meet now are extremely successful. They’re very wealthy, they’ve done everything, they’ve won all sorts of awards, they’ve led international companies or national companies. So they’re very sophisticated people, and they’ve done a lot, they’ve achieved a lot.

And then I pretty much come in and say, “Look, just so you know, the biggest global health challenge of our time is here, and we can’t fix it without you.” It often is funny to watch their faces when I say something like that. Because these guys are finance people, and they have never really thought about that. Most of them have never thought about it. It’s just never crossed their mind. It sort of sits outside of their traditional areas of interest and focus, which I completely understand. They’re into finance.

But when someone, I guess, an oncologist who’s sitting in front of you is saying the world’s on track for 1 billion tobacco related deaths this century, and we cannot change that projection unless you help us. It’s a big thing. And in the end, I guess we all, well most of us want to do something good in our lives and want to leave something that the world might either remember us for, or the world might be better off because we’ve been here. Obviously not all of us, but many of us certainly have that sentiment, particularly towards the end of our lives.

And so I think I often come along at the right time for them. Our mantra is that we name and fame, so this has been a really crucial part of our work. We work very collaboratively, discreetly, professionally, behind the scenes, off the record, with finance leaders, until they land on tobacco free. If they land on tobacco free, we’re all happy. They’re happy, we’re happy, we often help them with an announcement. We share the love, we make them feel great, because it is great. And then we continue the relationships afterwards, to make sure that they really understand what a big deal it is that they’ve made this change. 

We recently had a vent at the UN, See to I guess celebrate the leading financial organisations that have gone tobacco free, and to encourage others to follow suit. It’s called The Pledge, the Tobacco Free Finance Pledge. When we had this event, for anyone who was present on the day, they could actually sign this document on the day in front of all of these VIPs. The director general of the World Health Organisation, the head of the UN Tobacco Control Treaty, all of these people.

When they did this signing, I shook their hands, and also the head of the UN Tobacco Control Treaty shook their hand. It was funny watching her shake their hands, because she actually grabbed their hands … She put both of her hands around them, and just look them straight in the eye and said, “Thank you, thank you. This means an awful lot to us.”

Oscar Trimboli:            

Mm-hmm

Bronwyn King:             

When I’d imagined this moment, I hadn’t imagined how special that moment was, of connecting those two worlds. The finance leaders walked away from that thinking, you know, “I didn’t realise how big a deal this was for the health sector.” And it is a big deal for us. It’s huge. It’s brought hope [inaudible] was never hope before. So we do want the finance leaders to feel really good. It is a great legacy to leave, and I would certainly hope that more will join our team.

Oscar Trimboli:            

And right now, you’re measuring funds under management, how much?

Bronwyn King:             

Well to be honest, how globally we haven’t. And it’s nice, it’s a nice problem to have, because we can’t keep up. But when we launched the Pledge, the Tobacco Free Finance Pledge, at UN headquarters in September 2018, there were more than 90 founding signature is that controlled more than 6.5 trillion US dollars. That was just the launch. In that program’s open for two years, so we’ll be accepting signatures over the next two years, so we hope that we can escalate that number significantly.

Bronwyn King:             

But in Australia, so just in one country, and just in one part of our finance sector, which is the pension sector in Australia, more than 45 big Australian pension funds have gone tobacco free across all of their offerings, and they control 1.3 trillion dollars. So that’s just one country. And we’ve got the fastest growing pension sector in the world. We’ve had excellent returns for the past sort of four or five years, since all of this has happened. So, we like to think that we have a great case study. If it can be done here successfully, and these financial organisations can continue to thrive, then it can be done anywhere.

Oscar Trimboli:            

So, I’m in one of these superannuation pension funds. What can I possibly do? You’re talking about all these chairs, and trustees, and fund managers, is there anything I can do as an individual?

Bronwyn King:             

While in Australia, we’ve just launched a programme called Verified Tobacco Free. It’s the certification stamp for pension funds that are tobacco free, so that you as a consumer can be sure that your money’s not being invested in tobacco companies. Although that information may be available on websites now, it’s often on page 17 of a product disclosure statement that you’re never going to find despite your best efforts, and it shouldn’t be so hard to know that you’re not invested in Big Tobacco companies.

So, we are hoping that this certification stamp will be rolled out next year in Australia, and become widespread so that people in the community can really be comfortable with an increased level of transparency from their own funds. It is their own money. And we’re hoping to roll that out globally over the next couple of years.

Oscar Trimboli:            

And I think practically for everybody, just take control and ask the question. A lot of you might be investing in 401(k)s in the US. If you’re in index funds, there’s a good chance that you’re going to be there.

Bronwyn King:             

Well, for your US listeners, unfortunately nearly every single 401(k) is invested in tobacco. Nearly every single one. So, we’ve got an awfully long way to go in the USA, but our exciting news is that we’ll hopefully be setting up an office in New York next year, in 2019, and getting the conversation going there.

So, massive change is required in the USA, massive. I think most people in the USA would be really disappointed to think that their money is just routinely, without their consent, without their knowledge, being invested in tobacco companies. In the USA, almost half a million people die every year because of tobacco. In one country, just in the USA. It’s a profound impact, and I think huge change is required. It will be tough, but it’s coming.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Number two, I don’t have a financial planner, so what you actually do?

Bronwyn King:             

And I was the same. I had no idea either. I mean, life’s a crazy thing, and most people just don’t have the time or expertise to put a lot of effort into that. But, most people do have a bank account, and most people do have some insurance. I think it’s time for all of us to ask the banks, that I guess our fighting for us as customers … We have a choice, we can choose which banks we go to. But it’s time for us to ask those banks, are they financing tobacco companies?” And insurers, are they affiliated with the tobacco industry? Do they ensure tobacco companies, and do they invest their money in them?

And despite the modernization of the world, it’s surprising how much impact a letter can make. So sometimes I’ll meet with funds, and they’ll say, “I got a letter … I received a letter from a member,” just one random letter. But most of the time, these letters do get passed up the chain, even if it’s one letter. So, it doesn’t hurt to get out a pen, piece of paper, write a letter, and send it to your financial institutions and ask them if they have affiliations with the tobacco industry.

Bronwyn King:             

The truth is, if they don’t change, we really don’t have any hope of addressing this problem. And the numbers are crazy. We’re on track for a billion tobacco related deaths this century. 1 billion. There’s only 7 billion of us. A problem of that scale requires absolutely everyone to be on the same team, so every step forward is a good one.

Oscar Trimboli:            

When I first heard Brown when interviewed, I was touched by her story. It was way back in 2015. Her story is one of tenacity, her story is one of looking beyond the obvious. Her story is about looking around the corner, and connecting everything to a higher purpose, to their legacy. Ultimately, she talked about listening face to face. Listening over lunches, coffees, breakfast teas. Not only where she lived, but all around the world as a result.          

As a result, Bronwyn is creating a global impact, she’s creating an impact beyond words. It was the moment when she said, what they really want to say, they say to you walking from the meeting room to the lift. That moment is why human face-to-face connection matters. Bronwyn is a powerful example of listening across all five levels of listening. And as a result, she’s having a multigenerational impact in the 21st century, well beyond words.

Thanks for listening.

Oscar Trimboli:            

Deep Listening, Impact Beyond Words.